when we pray, how do we know our prayer matters? Or is prayer just a means to be in communication and relationship with God? Either way, this question seems very important, because everyday people pray. If you're asked, "do my prayers matter" by either a christian or non christian, how do you answer them?
Depending on what you believe about God, prayer is an interesting concept and idea.
If I believe that God is pre-ordaining everything in the world, it seems that my prayer does not matter, because God has already planned the outcome of the event I am praying about anyways.
If I am an open theist (God knows all options but does not know which action will be chosen until it has happened) and I pray for something or someone and God intervenes and answers my prayer (ie...a friend is dying of cancer, I pray, along with many other people, they were going to die from cancer, but our prayers worked and God saved the friend from dying) then that isn't true freedom is it? Is not total freedom, those places in which God does not intervene? If God does intervene, that then relinquishes my freedom, but maybe we are never meant to have total freedom, only freedom in the moments God chooses not to act. But that seems messed up too, because with all the evil in the world, wars, disease, natural disasters, etc...God is just willing to allow those events to happen and millions of innocent people are murdered over the course of human history. You can say, we live in a ______(fallen, shitty) world, but our response is not to just throw up our hands, God is still present, right? So....what does that mean?
Now, what about the idea of "middle knowledge" which says God knows all possibilities of different scenarios AND knows which actions will be taken in those moments. This still does not make sense with those moments that God chooses to intervene.
So does God intervene? If so, why? We can never fully know, can we? How do you know when your prayer is actually effective or is it just coincidence. You can then choose to assume it was God who answered a prayer, but then what about all the prayers of the people who have no food and die because they can't get basic necessities to survive? If you believe that it is the "sin" in their life that has had God reject them, then we should all be rejected and that is not really consistent with who God appears to be in the Bible.
I don't know, just some thoughts. Maybe C.S. Lewis is right, maybe prayer is more for the person praying than for any other purpose. I'd be curious to know your thoughts.
Depending on what you believe about God, prayer is an interesting concept and idea.
If I believe that God is pre-ordaining everything in the world, it seems that my prayer does not matter, because God has already planned the outcome of the event I am praying about anyways.
If I am an open theist (God knows all options but does not know which action will be chosen until it has happened) and I pray for something or someone and God intervenes and answers my prayer (ie...a friend is dying of cancer, I pray, along with many other people, they were going to die from cancer, but our prayers worked and God saved the friend from dying) then that isn't true freedom is it? Is not total freedom, those places in which God does not intervene? If God does intervene, that then relinquishes my freedom, but maybe we are never meant to have total freedom, only freedom in the moments God chooses not to act. But that seems messed up too, because with all the evil in the world, wars, disease, natural disasters, etc...God is just willing to allow those events to happen and millions of innocent people are murdered over the course of human history. You can say, we live in a ______(fallen, shitty) world, but our response is not to just throw up our hands, God is still present, right? So....what does that mean?
Now, what about the idea of "middle knowledge" which says God knows all possibilities of different scenarios AND knows which actions will be taken in those moments. This still does not make sense with those moments that God chooses to intervene.
So does God intervene? If so, why? We can never fully know, can we? How do you know when your prayer is actually effective or is it just coincidence. You can then choose to assume it was God who answered a prayer, but then what about all the prayers of the people who have no food and die because they can't get basic necessities to survive? If you believe that it is the "sin" in their life that has had God reject them, then we should all be rejected and that is not really consistent with who God appears to be in the Bible.
I don't know, just some thoughts. Maybe C.S. Lewis is right, maybe prayer is more for the person praying than for any other purpose. I'd be curious to know your thoughts.
I think I want to say more, so you might get another thought from me, but for the moment I want to tell you a story of what happened this week.In the last month I have been praying and asking God what was the most effective way to help the poor here. There are needs everywhere and I can only do so much and I want what I do to be meaningful spiritually as well as physically. I go to the prison here with a ministry team once a week. One of the women has really gotten my heart. In the last 2 weeks she is on my mind a lot and I really felt I wanted to help her by putting some money in her account because she is destitute. So this Tuesday when we arrived, she was crying and told us she desperately needed money to send home to her children. She had NEVER asked us for money. Coincidence, a resounding "No". I believe with all my heart that God was making scripture scream at me whenever I read anything about helping the poor. Its always been there, but lately it "jumps at me". So as I began to be convicted of obeying this call more and more, he led me to this poor woman who was crying out to him for help. Yes, others are crying to him in this prison too, but maybe he has another way he wants to answer them, maybe not through me, but someone else.
ReplyDeleteSo for me, pray is always answered, not always like we want or hope, but if I trust my Father to know best, I leave it in His hands. Sharon W.
Sharon, thanks for the story. It's things like these stories that are hard to say anything other than prayer is effective. I don't know how it could be coincidence. You felt something, acted on it and it is exactly what she needed. You had the choice to refuse to help her, maybe someone else would have helped her, maybe not. God's actions are more to influence you to do something and you ultimately have the choice to follow through or not. Because there are others needing money for food or to send to children that don't get that support. Is God influencing others to help them and these people (us - those privileged with money) are rejecting that? Or does God not have anything to do their suffering? What about all those moments that people pray for healing, safety, health and it isn't granted. It was granted for this one woman, so why her? Does that make sense? Maybe all these questions are pointless, because we can't really know God in human terms.
ReplyDeleteI'd push back on the suggestion that total freedom is God not intervening. Isn't the hope of the world embodied in God's ultimate intervention? Jesus came to earth to save us/call him remnant/invite us into creation's restoration/reconciliation.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe that leads to a different conclusion...maybe I don't want total freedom- if I decide to go 'off the narrow path' and do whatever the heck I want, I think perhaps I would want God to intervene. I mean, if we look at you and I as friends, you give me a lot freedom. A ton of freedom, but I don't think you'd give me total freedom. If I bust into your house and smash all your things and punch Sara in the face (sorry, Sara), I would certainly hope you would intervene! Well, obviously because you love Sara, but let's take her out of the picture...if I start punching windows and mirrors and am hurting myself- you'd intervene.....right???
Andrew, if I intervene in you breaking into my house, i'm not giving you total freedom to do what you want, i might be stopping the trajectory you were on.
ReplyDeleteIf God steps into an action in my life, changes the direction its going, in other words, i'm driving a long, a ladder falls off a guys truck in front of me, i realize it too late, i end up driving over the ladder and nothing happens. I do a further experiment to see if i can do it again, I can't, i have no way to explain how i didn't get in a terrible accident or mess up my car, without saying God intervened in that moment. A divine action without me aiding in the process doesn't seem like true freedom. Full freedom would have had me in the accident.Things happen. I guess I just don't see how God changing the course of action is still freedom.
I truly believe God has a plan for everyone. There are times when bad things happen and it is difficult to figure out "why". Maybe it is not for us to know at that moment, but eventually we will find out. I also believe prayer does matter. It IS a way of communicating with God, but isn't that important? If you say "I believe in God" but don't 'communicate' with Him, isn't that like having a friend that you don't talk to? As your Mother, I also don't think you should be experimenting with God by driving over the ladder a second time to see what happens. He might have his back turned. Love you.
ReplyDeleteHey Andy,
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion! As you may know, this has been a huge area in my life over the last few years. What is the point of prayer? Prior to our experience with a miscarriage, I really believed there was some sort of direct correlation with what we prayed for and how that life event played out in our lives. It is interesting because Christians often praise God for answered prayer, but if it doesn't turn out the way they prayed for, then it must not have been "God's will" Either outcome we can create a "Christian response" to the outcome and use our own theology of why God did or did not answer our prayers. When Cherie and I lost our first baby, I prayed every morning over the safety and health of our little baby...and it didn't work out. We lost our baby at 8 weeks, and maybe this is just from my personal experience, but this changed my views on prayer. This is only part of the story as there were many other "Christian signs" that seemed like it was a miracle that we were pregnant in the first place. I don't pretend to be selfish, or think for some second that God should only answer MY prayers (which would be selfish) but I just could not come to terms with the purpose of prayer after experiencing this complete heartbreak in my life. This was one of the most challenging things Cherie and I have faced, and I don't necessary thing that God killed our baby, or that God let it die so it could serve some greater purpose...so what did happen?
Since then, I have chosen to only pray for spiritual things in my life and others. I don't pray for safety, for health, or for God to physically intervene. Does this mean that God is incapable or cannot?? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I just chose to let God intervene when he choses and the wheels on the bus to go round and round.
A.W. Pink on the sovereignty of God and prayer:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reformationfiles.com/files/displaytext.php?file=pink_sovereignty.html#chapter9